Where's the "sands" thread darkydog2002 ? I certainly don't doubt you at all, it's just that I may learn something seeings how you are such a strong advocate for ratings. I've taken to reading other threads on here recently, and one inparticular with garyf was most insightful regarding "d" and "c" on the formguide. A hobby horse of mine for quite a while now. Going to get some fish and chips now and sit on the banks of the Mighty (cold) Murray and contemplate life itself !!!